Subject: Re: Pirsig

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Sorry Chris.....tried to read it several times, but found it to be philosophically lame.

----- Original Message -----
From: Chris Berry
Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:22 AM
To: Loopfram-@topica.com
Subject: Re: LONG DISTANCE LOOP FRAME

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I agree...this is a wonderful book. If you are not into philosophy and such
stuff, it is definitely not for you. However, if you enjoy a thought
provoking, intellectual read (albeit a hard and sometimes dry one) this is
the book for you. It took me about four times through to "get it" with this
book. Now it is time to replace my copy, cos I've read it so much. Maybe a
hardcover this time. I saw a new one at the bookstore the other week that
has some new comments by Pirsig, so I'll probably get that edition after the
holidays.
Btw, I think the Winnie the Pooh phrase "if you don't have anything nice to
say, don't say anything at all" fits nicely here.
Enjoy!
Chris in NC

From: psabr-@aol.com
Reply-To: Loopfram-@topica.com
To: Loopfram-@topica.com
Subject: Re: LONG DISTANCE LOOP FRAME
Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:04:25 EST

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OK,

Since we have introduced discussions on books and Guzzi vs BMW/Goldwing,
I'll bring up the annual "Zen" reference. If you've never read it, sit
down with "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". A book of
Philosophy intertwined with a study of motorcycles and their riders. The
reading can be dry at times, so be forewarned. The author (Pirsig) rides
an old motorcycle and performs routine and roadside maintenance because it
is an anticipated and expected part of the entire riding experience. He
understands that his bike is a collection of interoperating systems that
all tie together to make the bike run. If one system fails then the entire
"system" fails. Troubleshooting and analysis of problems adds to his
pleasure.

His riding partners are on BMW's. They enjoy riding but consider repair
and maintenance as things that are done to your bike by others and
inherently take away from the experience if you have to do them yourself.
Their bikes either run or they don't. They do not with to analyze even the
simplest problems since they look at the bike as a single entity. When
it's broke, it's broke and someone with that knowledge must fix it. I read
this book before ever getting a motorcycle and early on, identified that I
would never be satisfied with a bike that I did not have the ability to
work on myself. It is that reputation of low maintenance and longevity
that gives me little desire to own a BMW, Although I respect their bikes
greatly. My experience with HD is that one must perform the same basic
tasks (i.e. replace primary cover bolts) nearly everytime the bike is
ridden. That, to me, is silly stuff. I want a machine that when properly
"repaired", will hold that state reliably until another "repair" is needed.
Moto Guzzi fits nicely somewhere between the two. Generally when a
repair must me made repeatedly to a Guzzi, then perhaps there are other
factors which must be contributing to the problem. We can see this, in
that many of us have started with neglected bikes, but with time and
persistence, the bikes end up being very reliable and consistent. The
owners grow in knowledge and through familiarity and experience, begin to
anti

cipate when items must be worked on and why.

This may be a little deep and long-winded, but in my mind, it is this
common experience and and ATTITUDE which binds the members of this list
together.

To paraphrase the author one one of my favorite statements:
"When working on a motorcycle, the first and foremost tool one must have is
Gumption. Without that, no other tools will do you any good."

Thanks for the bandwidth
David Whitmore
'71 Ambassador (still gathering up the Gumption)

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<DIV>Sorry Chris.....tried to read it several times, but found it to be philosophically lame.</DIV> <DIV> </DIV> <BLOCKQUOTE style="BORDER-LEFT: #000000 2px solid; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 5px; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px"> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">----- Original Message -----</DIV> <DIV style="BACKGROUND: #e4e4e4; COLOR: black; FONT: 10pt Arial">From: Chris Berry</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">Sent: Wednesday, December 12, 2001 11:22 AM</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">To: Loopfram-@topica.com</DIV> <DIV style="FONT: 10pt Arial">Subject: Re: LONG DISTANCE LOOP FRAME</DIV> <DIV> </DIV>============================================================ ATTENTION Email Publishers! More professional email publishing is just a click away. Email targeting and scheduling. Real-time reporting. Subscriber demographics. HTML and AOL delivers. And more! Click now to try it FREE for 60 days! http://click.topica.com/caaaePPb1dfltb2MIZva/TopicaEmailPublisher ============================================================ I agree...this is a wonderful book. If you are not into philosophy and such stuff, it is definitely not for you. However, if you enjoy a thought provoking, intellectual read (albeit a hard and sometimes dry one) this is the book for you. It took me about four times through to "get it" with this book. Now it is time to replace my copy, cos I've read it so much. Maybe a hardcover this time. I saw a new one at the bookstore the other week that has some new comments by Pirsig, so I'll probably get that edition after the holidays. Btw, I think the Winnie the Pooh phrase "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all" fits nicely here. Enjoy! Chris in NC >From: psabr-@aol.com >Reply-To: Loopfram-@topica.com >To: Loopfram-@topica.com >Subject: Re: LONG DISTANCE LOOP FRAME >Date: Wed, 12 Dec 2001 13:04:25 EST > >============================================================ >Enter to Win Free Maid Service and More from Pfizer! >Win Free Maid Service for 6 Months, a "Day of Beauty" or >a Palm Handheld! Enter Now! >http://click.topica.com/caaaeHNb1dfltb2Ogs7a/Pfizer >============================================================ > >OK, > >Since we have introduced discussions on books and Guzzi vs BMW/Goldwing, >I'll bring up the annual "Zen" reference. If you've never read it, sit >down with "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". A book of >Philosophy intertwined with a study of motorcycles and their riders. The >reading can be dry at times, so be forewarned. The author (Pirsig) rides >an old motorcycle and performs routine and roadside maintenance because it >is an anticipated and expected part of the entire riding experience. He >understands that his bike is a collection of interoperating systems that >all tie together to make the bike run. If one system fails then the entire >"system" fails. Troubleshooting and analysis of problems adds to his >pleasure. > >His riding partners are on BMW's. They enjoy riding but consider repair >and maintenance as things that are done to your bike by others and >inherently take away from the experience if you have to do them yourself. >Their bikes either run or they don't. They do not with to analyze even the >simplest problems since they look at the bike as a single entity. When >it's broke, it's broke and someone with that knowledge must fix it. I read >this book before ever getting a motorcycle and early on, identified that I >would never be satisfied with a bike that I did not have the ability to >work on myself. It is that reputation of low maintenance and longevity >that gives me little desire to own a BMW, Although I respect their bikes >greatly. My experience with HD is that one must perform the same basic >tasks (i.e. replace primary cover bolts) nearly everytime the bike is >ridden. That, to me, is silly stuff. I want a machine that when properly >"repaired", will hold that state reliably until another "repair" is needed. > Moto Guzzi fits nicely somewhere between the two. Generally when a >repair must me made repeatedly to a Guzzi, then perhaps there are other >factors which must be contributing to the problem. We can see this, in >that many of us have started with neglected bikes, but with time and >persistence, the bikes end up being very reliable and consistent. The >owners grow in knowledge and through familiarity and experience, begin to >anti > >cipate when items must be worked on and why. > >This may be a little deep and long-winded, but in my mind, it is this >common experience and and ATTITUDE which binds the members of this list >together. > >To paraphrase the author one one of my favorite statements: >"When working on a motorcycle, the first and foremost tool one must have is >Gumption. Without that, no other tools will do you any good." > >Thanks for the bandwidth >David Whitmore >'71 Ambassador (still gathering up the Gumption) > >============================================================ >Introducing Adobe DesignTeam, the Web-based collaboration >service from Adobe Studio(r).Try it free for a month and >see why it's the easiest way to manage your design >projects. Get your free 30 day trial now >http://click.topica.com/caaaeFLb1dfltb2Ogs7f/AdobeDesignTeam >============================================================ > > _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. ============================================================ Better results from your email newsletter! Get professional email publishing tools to create more effective Newsletters. Target mailings, deliver in HTML, and track your success. Get Topica Email Publisher. Now FREE for 60 days! http://click.topica.com/caaaePYb1dfltb2MIZvf/TopicaEmailPublisher ============================================BR> </BLOCKQUOTE>

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Subject: Re: Pirsig

Author: Tim Crump

Date: Dec 12, 2001, 11:35 AM

Post ID: 1709139428

Entire thread: